Question on left arm technique
My teacher has been telling me that my left arm should be like a pendulum, so when playing on the lower strings my elbow should be more forward, pushed forward away from my body, and when i'm playing on the E string my elbow should be pulled back, where it's extending backwards almost like a chicken wing. Of all the professional violinists i've seen in person and on video, i've never seen anyone's arm move like that under the violin neck. Is my teacher correct in telline me to do this?
Dave
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 12:24 PM (MST)
Your elbow should only move as much as your fingers make it. In order to keep all four of your left hand fingers curved on all four strings, your arm will move slightly. But never extending outwards like a chicken wing on the e-string. On the e-string your arm should fall naturally and be almost, if not completely, hidden from your sight by the violin. You may see your elbow pop out from underneath the violin when using fourth finger on the G-string or up in 3rd+ positions. (you may not ever see your elbow depending on your size, shape, height, etc.)
Ask your teacher again to show you what they mean. This all sounds very bizarre.
Hope this helps.
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 12:36 PM (MST)
to be a little extreme, your left elbow position when playing G string is not the same as when playing E string, right?
why? because you try to maintain the proper alignment of your left hand and left forearm, so that when your left fingers execute fingering, they hover over the respective strings about the same distance/relationship regardless of g or e string. you provide a good setup for good intonation.
as a result, your left elbow sways left to right, or right to left, depending on your perspective, like a pendulum.
end of the story.
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 6:28 PM (MST)
Feel the ease at which your finger comes down, the even pressure blah blah, ::falls asleep::
You want to keep that ease on all strings. So to do that, don't change anything from your elbow up when you cross strings... just simply move your arm...
Also, you have to have the correct positioning of the violin under your chin to do this efficiently and effectively, with a "free arm" as they say.
V
Also, when you start playing in higher positions, your arm has tot he goo the other extreme and move UP and OVER.
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 3:01 PM (MST)
as Vince has explained. Soe people describe it as keeping the elbow under the fourth finger at all ties which makes anatomical sense. Incidentally, although it is a very small movement the elbow also moves ot the left and right when playing on one string. As the fingers ascend from 1sr to fourth there is gradual shift to the left and vcue versa.
Cheers,
Buri
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 3:51 PM (MST)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JraPQ9Euqc0
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 4:31 PM (MST)
The way I teach it is to have the elbow to the right of the center seam of the back plate. When the fingers go from G to E string, they curl SLIGHTLY more to reach the higher strings. If the fingertips tip over on the A or E strings, (finger-ends closer to the palm than the second knuckles), your elbow is too far forward. I do like the elbow-under-the-pinky description, but would stress - especially for a beginner - that the elbow tilt is so miniscule that one should learn it as being nonexistent. In other words, tell a beginner to slightly move the elbow backwards for the E string and you get the pendulum description which started this thread. Tell a beginner not to move the elbow or the left wrist at all, and you develop relaxed, individually mobile fingers and stable intonation. When the player has advanced a bit, he or she will notice the places where it pays to allow exceptions to the beginner's absolutist rule.
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 4:37 PM (MST)
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 5:13 PM (MST)
Emil, don"t teach that minute movement all the time but that particular cocnept can be extremely helpful in achieving the end of relaxtion and supplenes syou describe. Incidentally, it is described in more detail on Rapheal Klayman"s web page.
Cheers,
Buri
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 5:21 PM (MST)
seems that zukerman has more elbow movement than perlman. also, perlman set the neck of the violin much deeper at or near the base of the thumb web area than zukerman.
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 5:22 PM (MST)
Cheers,
Buri
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 5:38 PM (MST)
Dave
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 5:42 PM (MST)
Dave
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 5:46 PM (MST)
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 6:20 PM (MST)
I think if I do, he'll come searching (he says i'm his favorite student).
Dave
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 6:26 PM (MST)
Not all people have the same length arms ie, Hilary Hahn vs. Sarah Chang. lol, I love bringing that pseudo rivalry up.
V
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 6:31 PM (MST)
I hate how her fingers fly all over the place... that takes too much energy -- eek. And her arm isn't long enough for that violin (considering that she's only a child, a smaller size is fine) -- it looks more like she's playing a viola even though a violin's screech is what is coming out. At that age, she should be focusing heavily on a good sound, training her ears, mastering simple yet effective etudes, and of course.. playing student concertos. Yuck...
Super cute though -- she's soo watching her fingers.
V
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 8:22 PM (MST)
on the other hand, i have seen many many teachers telling the students 2 things, probably on day one:
1. 4 different levels of right shoulder for the 4 strings.
2. 4 different positions of the left elbow for the 4 strings.
should all beginners start with minimal motion of the left elbow? or should they start with 4 levels and as they get better and more efficient, learn to minimize the motion?
and v, concur with everything you have said except the watching her fingers part. trust me i know better on that one:)
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 8:28 PM (MST)
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 8:37 PM (MST)
for argument sake, biomechanically speaking, in terms of the lever effect, a minimal degree of elbow movement can lead to a sufficient amt of hand shift, if the fulcrum is close to the elbow.
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 8:37 PM (MST)
Your teacher is right....to a point. You're not supposed to see this happen on a large scale. I don't want to argue with your teacher though because there are many ways of doing things. What's more important is if it works or not. You should see if your teacher uses this technique and if he or she plays in tune!
Daniel
Posted on February 23, 2007 at 9:27 PM (MST)
The flowing under the instrument (I'm a beginner but there), can be accented until you learn to find most importantly a relaxed left shoulder and arm, then as I bet some others suggested it should match your reach in finding the most comfortable movement that allows:
1-to get over to g string with finger angles correct.
2-play in upper positions--then if you look at pros you see what you described 'alot' more dramatically.
So, it's all about relaxed flow. The movement though even if just getting over to 'G' I find best emphasized a little more dramatically until you get your vibrato jamming in 1st position there--if you're there yet.
Go to youtube and watch Menhuin play some Beethoven--then practice getting that flowing--that smooth.
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 2:59 AM (MST)
But don't do it when playing some perpetual piece -- with something like that, it's more just individual fingers moving across the strings as I think Emil pointed out.
I was just saying, a little movement with a relaxed arm for things like arpeggios and scales is fine. Don't play Pag. Capr. 16 with the same "active" elbow... let it be passive.
V
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 6:30 AM (MST)
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 7:36 AM (MST)
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 8:39 AM (MST)
This is all from the view of one who does not use a sholder rest. If you do use a sholder rest some of this may be troublesome to you, for example you would have difficulty keeping contact between your body and the instrument as the instrument is already being held off your body by the sholder res.
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 10:25 AM (MST)
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 11:20 AM (MST)
1. The hand remains in a straight line vertically with the forearm, when looking at the palm. The hand does not tip to the right or left at the wrist.
2. To find the proper position of the elbow when pivoting, pluck each string with the left 4th finger. (I think Buri first started me on that exercise, but I've read it from more than one person.) I've seen good results from this exercise.
I teach it this way because if I don't, I see that my students generally tend to keep the elbow locked in place and try to reach each of the strings with only their fingers, rotating the wrist this way and that. This does awful things for their intonation, since it completely changes the angle at which the fingers are dropping from string to string.
Now, as a player becomes more advanced, this concept becmoes more habitual, and as we develop more relaxed fluency, the elbow seems to find the most economical movement. That's probably why you don't see the movement so much when you watch professionals. The concept is still there, but it is modified to work for specific situations. As a beginner, though, it's a pretty safe bet to follow the principle of keeping the wrist in a straight line (not twisting from side to side when changing strings). Perhaps your focus on your left elbow has caused you to lose sight of this goal. The movement should not be large or painful.
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 11:56 AM (MST)
I was taught this way too, I was taught to lead string crossing from elbow so that your hand position stays the same on the four strings. It also allows you not to strain your little finger and to remain in a high position for it.
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 12:38 PM (MST)
"2. To find the proper position of the elbow when pivoting, pluck each string with the left 4th finger. (I think Buri first started me on that exercise, but I've read it from more than one person.) I've seen good results from this exercise.
Yes!!... And, over accentuating the elbow pivot until one finds one's ranges 'relaxed' seems good--as long as during that phase it is remembered that the goal is to minimize and more and more fine tune the overall movement minimized while staying relaxed.. As an older learner, this has been ''''''brutal'''' to '''get'''!. ;).
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 4:08 PM (MST)
In general, I remind students that the violin was made for Man, not Man for the violin (apologies to the New Testament!) So if they have to twist, or strain, or move their whole arm around to drop a solitary finger...they're doing it wrong. It's amazing how long understanding this sometimes takes. And amazing how fast they breeze through early Suzuki once they DO understand it.
Posted on February 24, 2007 at 4:22 PM (MST)
The amount of the movement of the elbow and the fingers depends on specific passages. I don't think that we can generalize very easily. However I'll try to quickly simplify here. I teach four finger patterns. So for instance,let's say that I am about to play the same four finger pattern once on A and then on D. I would move the elbow just enough to get the pinkey above the new string, thus keeping the same frame of the hand. For me it is the fastest and most secure way to play the passage.
But on the other hand if you are to reach to the new string for one finger, it would be wasteful to move the elbow. That is just common sense.
Lucia
Posted on February 25, 2007 at 12:17 AM (MST)
But you touch on something with which I agree wholeheartedly: the FRAME of the hand. The fact that the hand looks the same - and reacts the same - on any string as on any other. That reliability is probably the key here. I seek it through finger independence, striking - not pushing - from the base knuckle of each finger. The only way I even mention the left elbow is to remind kids not to rest it on their stomach. And when, inevitably, some small swing creeps in to the elbow's role in string crossings, their hand frame has already been established and their focus is on their fingers. (This, incidentally, also nicely avoids that other mistake: the use of the wrist to drop the pinky onto a string.) And their elbow is free to be used as a large-scale shifting device rather than some time-consuming, tension-inducing pendulum.
Posted on February 25, 2007 at 12:52 AM (MST)
I found Emily's image of 4th finger plucking each string very useful and used it nearly immediately with good success; and, Emil's (unless someone mentioned it earlier)I guess, image of hand shape and finger action only too...
For adults though who often have no flexiblity compared to children beginners I still have to think though that like with one version of learing vibrato where the range get's smaller and smaller, that the same could be applied to finding that shaped hand as long as it is part of a larger series of steps in minimizing motion.
It all reminds me of me stomping my foot(not a pretty sight) trying to keep time without the metronome, and finally getting it where I can use my big toe only ;)...
When I get time, I think I'll read the entire thread.
For various reasons (thick arms and shoulders notwithstanding), it was really really difficult to get that lightness of hold on my left side (arm, relaxed, angled fingers etc).
My friend who was a tennis coach bribed me to color her kinesiology books for her in college. I think that it would be a really good addition to violin teaching to have all this clearly in a dedicated systematic fashion--especially with what we now know concerning flow....
Now, off to my ballet lesson ;).
Posted on February 25, 2007 at 6:37 AM (MST)
do your 4 fingers on G string, followed by 4 finger run on E string, or vice versa....
excluding emil who can do incomprehensible things on the fiddle by the sound from his playing, anyone else who can manage minimal movement of the elbow can send in the clip and get one year supply of free beverage of your choice from,,,somewhere.
if the frame of the hand is to be maintained in that case, thus a constant, 2 variables exist, namely, wrist and "elbow" motion (the latter in this context is actually a misnomer because the swaying of elbow left to right is actually from the shoulder as it engages in internal and external rotation, essentially a rotator cuff function).
in other words, to maintain a constant hand frame, one needs to incorporate a combination of "elbow" and wrist motion, ranging from nil elbow to max wrist, to half and half, to the other way around, or any combo within...
the question is: which one is it for you, the regular flavor, the diet, or whatever.
which one works the best for you, in terms of efficiency and efficacy...
this whole thing reminds me of a cheesy saying: do it at your own pace but as soon as possible.
Posted on February 25, 2007 at 9:52 AM (MST)
I'm pretty sure Emil signed a pact with the devil! ;).
Posted on February 26, 2007 at 7:09 AM (MST)
Check out How Muscles Learn: Teaching Violin With The Body In Mind by Susan Kempter. Moving the left arm from the shoulder to get the fingers to cross strings allows one to retain a constant position of the left wrist and fingers. It promotes moving the fingers straight across the fingerboard, and it allows the same finger muscle combinations to be used in pressing down the fingers on all four strings. Thus students both learn muscle movements more quickly and play better in tune.
This is not to say that there aren't excellent players who don't use this technique. But in my view, their fingers work harder than they have to. And, as has been said, the required arm movements are very subtle and easily accomplished.
I have composed a series of 60 progressive exercises in the first position to teach this technique and have used them very successfully to improve students' pitch and facility. The exercises show when to move the left arm (and the right arm at the same time, for that matter, for string crossings) and in which direction.
Posted on February 26, 2007 at 9:46 AM (MST)
The concept here is a very simple one: the arm does whatever it has to do to support good finger position. The fingers should be on their tips, free to vibrate, and not touch other strings. The left arm movement should never be exaggerated, and the amount will vary according to the person. If your fingers are relaxed, able to do what they need to do, and open strings aren't touched unnecessarily, then I wouldn't worry about it.
It's amazing how incredibly dogmatic teachers can be. Berl Senofsky forced me to use a wrist vibrato for 2 years. Daniel Heifetz, in a trial lesson, wanted me to remove my shoulder rest (I actually did for a year on my own and hated even picking up the fiddle).
Posted on February 26, 2007 at 10:45 AM (MST)
I think at least for me, it's not like a chicken wing or something, but just getting out of a strict scrunching posture that lacked flexiblity. The result has been signficiant in f4 on G, as well as all other strings; and, particularly so in upper positions.
That's what I perceived in the orignal question as well, though maybe a little over stated. [EDIT]
Posted on February 26, 2007 at 11:02 AM (MST)
except, those who landed on the moon aimed for the moon, hahah.
the thing missing with chicken wing is whether it is to be mild, hot or suicidal.
Posted on February 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM (MST)
